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	<title>Comments on: Dispatches from the revolution</title>
	<atom:link href="http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/</link>
	<description>Kirrily Robert&#039;s blog</description>
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		<title>By: rone</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1537</link>
		<dc:creator>rone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 04:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1537</guid>
		<description>I forwarded this to a couple of female coworkers who are new to the company; they are stuck working with a bunch of jerky, unhelpful guys and they&#039;re quite frustrated about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forwarded this to a couple of female coworkers who are new to the company; they are stuck working with a bunch of jerky, unhelpful guys and they&#8217;re quite frustrated about it.</p>
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		<title>By: elz</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1536</link>
		<dc:creator>elz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 16:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1536</guid>
		<description>This is super-cool! And it&#039;s definitely also true that while women writing Perl or Ruby is awesome, any large-scale project also relies on artists, designers, testers, writers, communicators, note-takers, organizers, business-people, and scads of other behind-the-scenes volunteers, along with users who try things out and provide feedback, and we literally couldn&#039;t do it without them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is super-cool! And it&#8217;s definitely also true that while women writing Perl or Ruby is awesome, any large-scale project also relies on artists, designers, testers, writers, communicators, note-takers, organizers, business-people, and scads of other behind-the-scenes volunteers, along with users who try things out and provide feedback, and we literally couldn&#8217;t do it without them.</p>
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		<title>By: Emmanuele Bassi</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1534</link>
		<dc:creator>Emmanuele Bassi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 09:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1534</guid>
		<description>thanks for doing this survey. the feedback mostly fits with other surveys done in the opensource community, so nothing new here - except the continuously reinforced feeling that we&#039;re not doing our best (and I&#039;m talking mostly from the GNOME community camp here).

so: we mostly know why and where we fail. now it would be a good time to understand how can we get better and make every opensource project follow in the footsteps of the success stories out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for doing this survey. the feedback mostly fits with other surveys done in the opensource community, so nothing new here &#8211; except the continuously reinforced feeling that we&#8217;re not doing our best (and I&#8217;m talking mostly from the GNOME community camp here).</p>
<p>so: we mostly know why and where we fail. now it would be a good time to understand how can we get better and make every opensource project follow in the footsteps of the success stories out there.</p>
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		<title>By: pfctdayelise</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1533</link>
		<dc:creator>pfctdayelise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 08:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1533</guid>
		<description>How interesting. Thanks for conducting those interviews Skud.

The &lt;a href=&quot;http://hack.dreamwidth.net/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dreamhacks&lt;/a&gt; scheme looks brilliant. That alone is almost tempting enough for me to want to drop everything and go join them. I have my own webspace now so I probably don&#039;t even need it, but it really shows a commitment to removing barriers to entry. Their wiki also has dedicated advice for beginners and new developers.

...How did they do it? How can other new projects do it? How can existing project move this direction too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How interesting. Thanks for conducting those interviews Skud.</p>
<p>The <a href="http://hack.dreamwidth.net/" rel="nofollow">Dreamhacks</a> scheme looks brilliant. That alone is almost tempting enough for me to want to drop everything and go join them. I have my own webspace now so I probably don&#8217;t even need it, but it really shows a commitment to removing barriers to entry. Their wiki also has dedicated advice for beginners and new developers.</p>
<p>&#8230;How did they do it? How can other new projects do it? How can existing project move this direction too?</p>
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		<title>By: Kragen Javier Sitaker</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1532</link>
		<dc:creator>Kragen Javier Sitaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 07:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1532</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think tech support is traditionally devalued because it&#039;s &quot;feminine&quot;.  I think it&#039;s &quot;feminine&quot; because it&#039;s traditionally devalued; patriarchy as usual leaves to women the jobs considered the worst.  This is a separate phenomenon from devaluing jobs that traditionally belong to women, but both are real phenomena.

Let me offer an alternative account.  I suspect that tech support is traditionally devalued for capitalist rather than patriarchal reasons.  Capitalism values work that increases the value controlled by the capitalist: shareholder value.  So it values work that produces capital assets that produce value over time and stay with the company when the employees leave, such as machining, programming, accounting, or project planning.  It doesn&#039;t value work that is part of cost of sales --- where the capitalist needs to buy twice as many man-hours to make twice as much revenue --- because competition with other capitalists exerts constant pressure on how much he can profitably spend on that work.  It doesn&#039;t value work whose primary value is to build knowledge, because knowledge goes with employees when they leave.  The cost of tech support, when done by employees, is part of the per-customer cost of providing a service, so it&#039;s essentially part of the cost of sales.  It has a very important benefit for the provider, too: if they pay attention, they learn what aspects of their service are most valuable to their customers, and what aspects destroy the most value.  I think that&#039;s why Craig Newmark is a customer service representative.

The funny thing is, there are a wide variety of software-based services where the customer derives much more value from the support than they do from the software, often even from fewer man-hours.  And I&#039;m not just talking about the EDS model where the customer brings in a team of hourly consultants to set the software up; even in cases where the customer pays the same regardless of how many man-hours of support they need.

Whether support really *is* worth less than coding at Dreamwidth is something I&#039;m not informed enough on to offer an opinion on.  I&#039;m just pointing out that, even if it isn&#039;t, there are other possible explanations someone might irrationally devalue it than merely because it&#039;s traditionally &quot;feminine.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think tech support is traditionally devalued because it&#8217;s &#8220;feminine&#8221;.  I think it&#8217;s &#8220;feminine&#8221; because it&#8217;s traditionally devalued; patriarchy as usual leaves to women the jobs considered the worst.  This is a separate phenomenon from devaluing jobs that traditionally belong to women, but both are real phenomena.</p>
<p>Let me offer an alternative account.  I suspect that tech support is traditionally devalued for capitalist rather than patriarchal reasons.  Capitalism values work that increases the value controlled by the capitalist: shareholder value.  So it values work that produces capital assets that produce value over time and stay with the company when the employees leave, such as machining, programming, accounting, or project planning.  It doesn&#8217;t value work that is part of cost of sales &#8212; where the capitalist needs to buy twice as many man-hours to make twice as much revenue &#8212; because competition with other capitalists exerts constant pressure on how much he can profitably spend on that work.  It doesn&#8217;t value work whose primary value is to build knowledge, because knowledge goes with employees when they leave.  The cost of tech support, when done by employees, is part of the per-customer cost of providing a service, so it&#8217;s essentially part of the cost of sales.  It has a very important benefit for the provider, too: if they pay attention, they learn what aspects of their service are most valuable to their customers, and what aspects destroy the most value.  I think that&#8217;s why Craig Newmark is a customer service representative.</p>
<p>The funny thing is, there are a wide variety of software-based services where the customer derives much more value from the support than they do from the software, often even from fewer man-hours.  And I&#8217;m not just talking about the EDS model where the customer brings in a team of hourly consultants to set the software up; even in cases where the customer pays the same regardless of how many man-hours of support they need.</p>
<p>Whether support really *is* worth less than coding at Dreamwidth is something I&#8217;m not informed enough on to offer an opinion on.  I&#8217;m just pointing out that, even if it isn&#8217;t, there are other possible explanations someone might irrationally devalue it than merely because it&#8217;s traditionally &#8220;feminine.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Rose White/yarnivore</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1531</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose White/yarnivore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 06:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1531</guid>
		<description>(Leaving a comment here about a somewhat related issue, by request)

I rooted my G1 phone today and installed new firmware. I mentioned to a friend that doing so made me feel really competent, and he said, &quot;Huh, that&#039;s an odd word to use.&quot; It turns out that his girlfriend uses the same word, but he thinks that &quot;competent&quot; connotes &quot;barely competent&quot; -- he&#039;d use &quot;capable&quot; instead. Furthermore, he finds it odd that either his girlfriend or I feel a need to *mention* when we &quot;feel competent&quot; -- he said that to him we&#039;re both obviously capable women. 

That whole exchange really interested me. I hadn&#039;t meant to point out my insecurities, but I clearly did, and I&#039;m not alone. 

----

I&#039;m thrilled by both these open-source projects, and especially pleased that they are being well documented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Leaving a comment here about a somewhat related issue, by request)</p>
<p>I rooted my G1 phone today and installed new firmware. I mentioned to a friend that doing so made me feel really competent, and he said, &#8220;Huh, that&#8217;s an odd word to use.&#8221; It turns out that his girlfriend uses the same word, but he thinks that &#8220;competent&#8221; connotes &#8220;barely competent&#8221; &#8212; he&#8217;d use &#8220;capable&#8221; instead. Furthermore, he finds it odd that either his girlfriend or I feel a need to *mention* when we &#8220;feel competent&#8221; &#8212; he said that to him we&#8217;re both obviously capable women. </p>
<p>That whole exchange really interested me. I hadn&#8217;t meant to point out my insecurities, but I clearly did, and I&#8217;m not alone. </p>
<p>&#8212;-</p>
<p>I&#8217;m thrilled by both these open-source projects, and especially pleased that they are being well documented.</p>
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		<title>By: Skud</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1530</link>
		<dc:creator>Skud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 05:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1530</guid>
		<description>Thanks MissKat.  I think you&#039;re raising an important point there: it&#039;s not just that we have to get more women into &quot;masculine&quot; roles, but also that we need to value the traditionally devalued &quot;feminine&quot; roles too.  We see this again and again in the &quot;Mommy wars&quot;.  The two go hand in hand, IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks MissKat.  I think you&#8217;re raising an important point there: it&#8217;s not just that we have to get more women into &#8220;masculine&#8221; roles, but also that we need to value the traditionally devalued &#8220;feminine&#8221; roles too.  We see this again and again in the &#8220;Mommy wars&#8221;.  The two go hand in hand, IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: MissKat</title>
		<link>http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/05/19/dispatches-from-the-revolution/comment-page-1/#comment-1529</link>
		<dc:creator>MissKat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 05:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infotrope.net/blog/?p=236#comment-1529</guid>
		<description>I mentioned this in channel and was asked to leave it as a comment somewhere, so I&#039;m doing that.

I do Support on DW. I do it because I love it, because I&#039;m good at it, because it&#039;s something that makes sense in my bones. I don&#039;t code, and though I&#039;m confident that if I really set my mind to it I&#039;d get tons of help from the DW babydev community, I don&#039;t really want to learn. I&#039;m happy in Support.

I&#039;m sure I&#039;m just reading too much into this, but it feels like I&#039;m a Traitor to the Revolution because I like doing what is considered a traditionally female gendered activity. I feel like I&#039;m doing something wrong, and betraying my fellow woman because the thing that I love and am passionate about is something that doesn&#039;t go against any perceived gender roles. I think it&#039;s fantastic and amazing that women are neck-deep in coding on DW and AO3, but I feel sort of like a second class citizen because I&#039;m not doing The Important Work. I&#039;m just doing Support, y&#039;know? In that sense, I&#039;m still a substandard volunteer, just now I&#039;m  worth less than someone who is my own gender as opposed to being worth less than a man. How is that progress?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mentioned this in channel and was asked to leave it as a comment somewhere, so I&#8217;m doing that.</p>
<p>I do Support on DW. I do it because I love it, because I&#8217;m good at it, because it&#8217;s something that makes sense in my bones. I don&#8217;t code, and though I&#8217;m confident that if I really set my mind to it I&#8217;d get tons of help from the DW babydev community, I don&#8217;t really want to learn. I&#8217;m happy in Support.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;m just reading too much into this, but it feels like I&#8217;m a Traitor to the Revolution because I like doing what is considered a traditionally female gendered activity. I feel like I&#8217;m doing something wrong, and betraying my fellow woman because the thing that I love and am passionate about is something that doesn&#8217;t go against any perceived gender roles. I think it&#8217;s fantastic and amazing that women are neck-deep in coding on DW and AO3, but I feel sort of like a second class citizen because I&#8217;m not doing The Important Work. I&#8217;m just doing Support, y&#8217;know? In that sense, I&#8217;m still a substandard volunteer, just now I&#8217;m  worth less than someone who is my own gender as opposed to being worth less than a man. How is that progress?</p>
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